Comments: From First! to the Trees
October 30, 2009
Are we building blog software? A comic publishing engine? A CMS? A forum? A photography site? A tutorial? A wiki? Almost anything we build on the internet is going to want some sort of comment system. As it turns out, comments are hard. In many systems, getting the comments right is the hardest part. \ Some systems - like phpBB - are just comments all the way down.
So, why are comments hard?
On many sites, the 'comment' system is the only way that users can interact with a site. Everything else is just 'passive viewing'. But with user-facing input comes a bevy of new problems.
We now have to guard against Bobby Tables and XSS injections. \ XSS injections can be sneaky, too - if, for example, we have failed to set a 'charset' encoding for our site, User J can set it for us, and then use the alternate charset to get stuff past our HTML-filtering radar. Bam, all of a sudden we're serving Scareware.
A user-facing input is a target for every spammer and SEO greaseball on the face of the earth. Be it through Bayesian filtering (Akismet), turing test (CAPTCHA), moderation, popularity ranking, or voodoo magic, the Spam must be managed.
Hit & Run CommentsMost of the time, on a blog, comments are hit-and-run. \ User Q leaves a comment and then escapes, never-to-be-seen again.
On more-frequented sites, or sites with a little bit of community, if User Q put enough emotional investment into a comment, he might check back once or twice to see if somebody else has responded. One of the critical indicators of whether User Q will come back to check on his or her comment is whether or not he or she believes that it will be responded to - so a high traffic website will do better than a low traffic one.
There are numerous where User W has commented on my blog, I've commented 'back', and - I'm sure- User W never returned to see my response. Why would they?
How do we bring User Q back when somebody has commented on his post? Some services (Facebook) send an e-mail, which is frustrating and kludgy, but it works. Some services just assume that they're awesome enough that we will be back, and when we do, there will be a glowing orange envelope to show us that someone has commented on our comments - but this requires User Registration, which is a whole new can of worms, because nobody, anywhere, wants to register for anything.
Flat ChronologicalOn most blogs, and many forums, commenting is Flat Chronological - a single line of comments, top to bottom, in the order that they were posted. Flat Chronological is, easily, the king of the commenting styles - it's the easiest to implement and the most common. We find it in phpBB, twitter, Wordpress, and just about everything else in the universe.
There are some problems with Flat Chronological, though.
First!With chronological comments, the first guy to the party (User A!) will always be the first guy you see in the comments. Some people take their hunt to be 'first' so seriously that they don't even care what they type, so long as they're at the top. \ So they usually type 'first', as if it is an internet badge. Sometimes, they say 'frist'. They don't have TIME to correct that bad boy, because nothing's more embarrassing than having "First!" be the second comment.
Scroll Scroll Scroll Scroll Scroll PostSo, User N has read the article. He wants to comment! \ He checks the first few comments to see if anybody has said what he wants to say- nope, they all just read "First!". He immediately scrolls to the very bottom of the 369-comment-pile and makes his voice heard. Of course, User N's argument has already been made 289 times in the pile. But he don't care, because who wants to sort through 369 comments?
NestingAnd now, User Y and User G want to have a conversation in the comments. How does User G write his comment so that everybody knows that he's calling User Y a "fudgecaptain", and not, say, the original-poster? Well, he has to reference User Y somehow, often by typing "@UserY" - of course, anybody who's reading the post now must scroll up to UserY's comment to see what User G was talking about. So, in order to tidy this up, User G must nest a little bit of context into his post - User Y's comment. \ Modern forum engines do this so often that there's a button for it, and the nesting can go pretty deep.
Tree ChronologicalSo, in order to solve the Nesting problem, every techie out there immediately springs to the first solution that comes to mind. A tree. Now, a tree offers a pretty simple tradeoff. The Good is that it eliminates the nesting problem pretty effectively. The Bad is that it breaks the page's chronology- it's hard to tell when a post was made, based on position. Determining what's new, and deciding where to start and which leaves to follow, can be disorienting. The Ugly is that a conversation now takes place along the X axis instead of the Y axis - and browsers do not handle 'horizontal' that well.
So, going full-on Tree Chronological can be sluggish and complicated. A common solution is to have a broad, flat tree containing 'groups', which contain 'categories', each one containing 'threads', which then contain Flat Chronological content. This would be your canonical 'forum'.
Flat PopularityLet's say we ignore the Nesting problem and move right on to the Scroll Scroll Scroll Scroll Post problem - in order to sort comments by importance with a chronological list, we have to read every one of them. That's just ugly - how do we deal with that?
Well, why not rank the comments by importance? That way, we can tell which are the best comments and just push them right to the top. On top of that, spammers can be punished pretty rapidly, and pushed so far down the rankings that nobody will have to look at them. Popularity, though, is hard.
How do we keep the popularity system from getting gamed? If we just let people Like or Dislike whatever they want, whenever they want, they'll just upvote themselves until they're at the top. If we limit the votes to once-per-cookie or once-per-IP... well, most of the people I know can think of trivially easy ways to get around that. So, then, we can just restrict voting to Registered Users - remembering that nobody, anywhere, wants to register for anything. People can still, though, register for 30 or 40 accounts by hand and then use a script to automatically upvote their contributions and downvote the contributions of others. Even if were were to go so far as to CAPTCHA everybody who tries to upvote or downvote something, people could still game the system by forming 'upvote blocs' like the legendary Digg power-user bloc - and there's not a developer out there who thinks a captcha for every upvote is a good idea.
So, you need a pretty advanced algorithm, social or technical, to reduce the percentage of people who can successfully game the system.
Of course, it need not be that advanced if you don't have a big audience. The level of 'system gaming' is really more determined by the importance of having a top spot. \ A top spot at reddit or digg is worth something - it might mean 9000 or 10000 visitors to your site. A top comment at reddit or digg confers temporary bragging rights and permanent-but-meaningless 'karma points'. A top comment on, say, my blog, wouldn't even be worth gaming the system for.
Okay, so then, you also need to determine which comments you should push to the top - how do you determine which is the 'best' comment? Sorting by average rating is harder than it looks, and the solution is head-splatteringly unpleasant: How Not To Sort By Average Rating - honestly, the upvotes-minus-downvotes system still works fine for me - while it's not the most accurate, is still my favourite technique. Everybody understands it, at least.
Okay, so, let's imagine we have a reasonably-secure and reasonably-sensible popularity system for sorting 'reply quality'. With a 'flat' popularity system, we've totally broken the 'chronology' of the comments - that means, we get single comments that try their very best to shoot to the top, but conversation has died entirely because it's impossible to determine who spoke first.
Tree PopularitySo, now we have the system of reddit - a reply-tree, with nodes sorted by popularity. We get easily followable nested conversations, and we get sorting-by-importance, both in the same creamy package. This, of course, suffers from the most technical challenges of the bunch - sorting by popularity and making a tree's "horizontal" conversations readable. It's still hard to find 'new' posts.
Having the popularity on the vertical axis, though, and chronological postings on the horizontal axis, is still a very solid way to organize a discussion. I've certainly sunk enough time into reddit's system.
Alternatively, consider Slashdot - a Tree Chronological that uses popularity to hide unpopular comments and embolden popular comments. I'd argue that Slashdot has the problem where popular comments responding to unpopular ones are shown with no context. ("You're wrong. The correct answer is: tumbleberries. +5 Insightful! ") - but it's just another example of the myriad ways that popularity and chronology, trees and 'flat' structures are used to form a comment system.
Comment SizeMoving on, let's consider how much effort people put into individual comments. The size of the text-box and the tools that one gives a user to work with help determine what the comments look like. Consider, again, reddit. The reddit comment box is small, and tools to format comments are in some variant of WikiCreole - minimally accessible. Thus, reddit comments are, on average, very terse. The very-terse comments work well with reddit's popularity-tree comment structure - some might argue that reddit's comment structure wouldn't work with longer comments. "Huge wall of text" reddit conversations, you'll find, can be very hard to follow; A wall of text with a tree structure, like that, gives you a read that feels like a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book.
On the other hand, StackOverflow is designed to support large, verbose comments. It could be considered mostly a "Flat Popularity" system - while each "Answer" can be commented on, these comments are a second class citizen in the StackOverflow world. The answers, though, they're big. When a user writes one, he gets a Big Comment Field and Writing Tools.
Reddit is about quick repartee, and Stack Overflow is about blowing your load on a single comment - and you can see it right there in the design of their respective comment systems.
PersonalizationOne can also look at how much personalization is allowed (or requested) in comments. A site has to be pretty popular to get it's users to the point where they're willing to personalize at all - while it might have been popular in the early days of the internet to plaster our mugs on every website that asked for it, this is 2009, and we're all getting sick and tired of writing down our home city, favourite breakfast, or programming-language-of-choice.
Every System Is DifferentOf course, there's no "one true" comment system - each comment system, each commenting strategy has it's own pros and cons, and creates a slightly different sense of community. A phpBB forum style, especially one with very many categories, is hopeless for a limited-audience website (say, a blog) - the broad tree and low comment density makes the community feel empty, which means that people will rarely check on their posts, which then means that people will post less often, further lowering the comment density... well, let's just say that it's a spiral that ends in an empty forum. The best comment system for a low-traffic site is probably a simple Flat Chronological - it's easiest to understand, and nobody wants to have to learn a new system for just one site.
On the other hand, some sites - blogs, even- have Flat Chronological comments that get way out of control.
Very-restrictive systems can be good for keeping spam and system abuse under control, but very open systems are more likely to attract people.
Some people like personalization and vast closed systems. For these people, a Facebook. Some people like anonymity, an open system, and massive amounts of tentacle rape porn. For these people, a 4Chan.
So, I've taken almost 2000 words to say something that everybody already knows: Comments are hard, and if you're building a system with comments, you should have a good, solid think about them before you dive in. Maybe you should write a long blog post about them to help clarify your thoughts on the matter.
It didn't work for me, but you can always try.
Aside: I'm publishing this at 9:45 tomorrow morning, because that seems like blog-post prime time. You're at work, sippin' your cup of coffee, you've worked your way through your fast distractions, and you're looking for something to save you from work for another 15-20 minutes.blog comments powered by Disqus